Myth and Comics
First of all Jeff, in direct response to the interview you posted, I would like to say that I don't think Oeming is very well read on the subject of mythology. Anyone who has done any research or given any thought to the matter of mythology has read Joseph Campbell, and it seemed as if Wagner was the one who knew his work.
Are comic books modern mythology - in a word, yes. At the very heart of the heroes that cut to the quick of our souls there is the resonance of stories that touch the essence of the human experience - stories that tell the human story. This doesn't cover every comic book, obviously, but how many people felt actual sorrow when Barry Allen died - I know I did. If I can cry for the death of a fictional character, that makes them at least a little bit real to me, especially in relation to the part of me that believes in humanity, and in the characters that represent that humantiy.
First, what is mythology? Joeseph Campbell has said that "myths are the clues to the spiritual potentialities of the human life", and Bill Moyers has translated that to mean "what we're capable of knowing and experiencing within". In the book of Alex Ross' artwork, Mythology, Campell is also quoted, from his famous book The Hero With A Thousand Faces (which inspired George Lucas' creation of Star Wars) as defining myth as "the secret opening through which the inexaustible energies of the cosmos poor into human cultural manifestation... the very dreams that blister sleep, boil up from the basic, magic ring of myth." One dictionary definition (Princeton.net) defines mythology as "myths collectively; the body of stories associated with a culture or institution or person". So looking at this information, we can link comics to mythology from a myriad of different angles. Superheroes as a manifestation of culture as well as representatives of culture, as guides to our inner stories and beliefs, and dreams of humanity's potential.
Mythology does require belief, but it is more about belief in ourselves, in our spiritual potential, then it is about religion. It's true that some comics are the children of capitalism, but they can be, and many times are, so much more than that.
Let's use Superman as an example. In my junior year of high school I was in an AP English class in which we were meant to work on a research project. I was attempting to prove that comic books were an important part of American culture. During my presentation I wore a Superman t-shirt and asked my class (which consisted of many people who had never read comic books, I know because I asked them) who among them recognized the man on my shirt. EVERYONE raised their hand. I then asked them what he meant to them and had the gratification of hearing most every person call out words like justice, hero, truth, courage, liberty. Even my 11th grade English class recognized a superhero as a cultural icon, a manifestation of human potential. Another good example of Superman as myth can be traced back the The Death of Superman. On one hand, it was a marketing event, the death of a great hero. On the other hand, since when did a fictional character's death make it onto the daily news. I remember feeling as if Superman had really lived in order for it to be so painful when I heard a news anchor say that Superman had died. My sister and I weren't the only ones in school wearing black armbands that week. If belief is a factor in defining mythology then I can introduce many people to whom these characters are something to believe in. 
Myths are supposed to be the stories that teach us about the human experience, that help us to understand our own stories and our spiritual and mortal place in our lives. They help us to understand not only what it means to live but what it means to die. Myths help us to discover what "we need to signify, to touch the eternal, to understand mysteriousness, to find out who we are"(Bill Moyers, The 
Power of Myth). For me superheroes have done all these things, and I know I'm not alone. There is a sense of awe and beauty when I read a book like Adventures of Superman 648, where I get to see the heart of the myth that is Superman. When Lois speaks for humanity when she says "That's the gift of Superman. Even when today seems so uncertain... he makes us believe... in tomorrow."
Isn't that the power of a mythical hero after all? To make us believe in tomorrow. To show us how to make it there, not by doing it for us, but by leading by example and inspiring us to greater things, to fight for us when we've forgotten how to fight for ourselves. Even Superman himself recognizes Batman as a hero of mythic potential. "Then, I look at Batmna and all the tragedy in his life and how, somehow, he presses on. And if he can do his job, I've got nothing to complain about."(SB Public Enemies)
There are so many things I have learned about what it is to be a human being through comic books and superheroes. If that's not mythology, I don't know what is. Every time I've met someone who grew up believing in heroes like Superman and Batman I am amazed to not only find a kindred spirit but a good person. Whenever I lose faith in humanity I turn to comic books. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Flash, and so many more were my other parents. When I look around and see so many kids with Superman shirts or Wonder Woman lunch boxes I know that these stories resonate on a deeper level in our culture. I understand that they are myth.
Moyers: Why are there so many stories of the hero in mythology?
Campbell: Because that's what's worth writing about. (The Power of Myth)
posted by Gwen at 5:14 PM
21 Comments:
Very impressive post. Thank you! You actually choked me up in a couple of places there, remembering superheroes as they are supposed to be. It is very saddening for me to see what superheroes have become. As Didio Marvelizes the DCU(something he said he wanted to do from day one) a new breed of hero emerges. One who will kill if necessary. One who will mindwipe or otherwise lobotomize villains to get them to behave better. "Heroes" who are suicidal drug abusers . Right now, with 52, Didio is introducing this new brand of "superhero". Black Adam-noble ex-ruler of a nation who believes that sometimes evil must be extinguished permanently. Renee Montoya-self loathing alcoholic with major anger issues. Elongated Man-depressed, suicidal detective who cares not if he lives or dies. The Question-crackpot conspiracy theorist. Is he violent? Well, he was the template for Rorschach in Watchmen. That's pretty brutal. So while heroes like Superman represent truth and justice, and Batman personifies iron will and perserverence, what do these new so-called heroes mean to us? Are they even heroes? What would kids learn from reading about these characters who are less myth and more based in real life, the worst it has to offer?
I let chsiana answer that question better, but I do know that not all the mythological gods were 100% good guys also. Christianity has it's share of failed heroes also. I thing that we can have players who represent everything as long as we have the main players being the true heroes. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain America, Spider-Man and the FF should always do the right thing.
I agree with Jeff - very nice post.
Even our most sucessful heroes have flaws, they have to or they'd be gods - and gods don't teach us about the human experience, that's what heroes are for. Their struggle to achieve great things in spite of their flaws is part of what makes them heroic. That's one of the reasons I liked the end of Infinite Crisis, because DCU's trinity made a conscious choice to rise above the baser temptations, they chose to be better then those they fought against.
As for the "new breed" of hero, I'm not sure how many of them we can actually classify as heroes. In The Power of Myth Campbell says that "a hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself." Someone who can't even rise above his or her own petty problems can't really be a hero.
Oh, and villians can be myths too. I think Lex Luthor and Joker certaintly help to teach us about the darker side of humanity. We don't really need pretend heroes to fill that role.
And I'm glad you guys enjoyed the post - it's a subject I've given a lot of thought to.
I think we need to start putting more myth back into our superheroes. They have been dragged down into our dark, dirty world and that's not where they should be. Imagine if the Greek gods had to live in Newark, NJ or Orlando, FL instead of the heavenly heights of Mt. Olympus. They should be looked up to as something each of us strives to be more like, not pulled down to our level where we can look them square in the eye. I will always hate Brad Meltzer, a man I've never even met, for what he did to the Silver Age heroes in Identity Crisis. Giving heroes flaws so they are more easily related to by us regular humans is one thing, but turning them into scumbags who stole the thing most precious to each one of us, our mind and identity, that was a reprehensible act that can never be forgiven, only forgotten. You know what I miss? The grand origin tales of the Silver Age. Glorious! Now we get lame origins like the new Blue Beetle's or Kyle Rayner's. Where is the myth and the legend in those origins?
While I like Kyle, and it showed that even an everyman can become a great hero, his origin was lame. But still as Ion the first time he was a hero with unlimtied power who did not abuse it.
For a funny take on Kyle's origin, the Captain in next wave was funny.
I agree with what you guys are saying, but I'm curious to know how you feel about comic books as modern day myth. Do you agree with the idea that many of these characters have mythic qualities (And I'm talking about the real characters, not Devin Grayson's version on Nightwing and such)? What, if anything, did comics teach you about the human experience? Do you believe as Joseph Campbell did that without mythology in our lives many of us become lost as we're never taught what it is to be human?
I agree that some superheroes are mythic, certainly Superman. Wonder Woman is of course mythic as she was made of clay and brought to life by the Greek gods. Batman is more an urban myth but still fascinating. I honestly think that he is the single most intriguing character in all of fiction. Look at his situation. He has everything that most of us hope, wish and pray for. He has wealth, a mansion, great looks, charm, gorgeous women throwing themselves at him, unmatched intelligence and power, both financial and social. And yet he is the most miserable SOB on the face of the planet. None of the shallow, surface, material things mean a thing to him cuz he was deprived of his loving parents and a happy childhood. I am totally enthralled with this. Most of us put so much value on acquiring things and material wealth or trying to look as good as we can. But none of that matters as Bruce shows us. All that matters is family. And I think that only a few of the early Marvel characters are mythic. Hulk, FF, Spidey....these are the Marvel myths while the newer creations, like the lame origins of the X-men or Punisher, are more street level creations lacking imagination. Imagination is one of the keys to myth in my book.
I think comics have mythical qualities and certainly are myths as defined by your essay.
Batman is the best character of all time because he is human and due to his chidhood tradegy he dedicated his life to making the world a safer place.
One of the all time enduring stories for me are FF #40 and Spider-Man #33. Both of those stories showed characters willing to make any sacrifice to save the day and/or do the right thing. Spider-Man over came impossible odds and could easily have given up when the huge machine fell on him. Instead he sucked it up and pushed himself beyond what he thought were his limits to save his Aunt May, yet it probably cost him his girl friend Betty Brant. In Fantastic Four #40, Reed turns Ben Grimm back into the Thing to take down Doctor Doom. The rest of the FF were too weak to fight him, so Reed changes Ben back into the Thing knowing this is the wrong thing for his friend, but it would save the day. Then the Thing's epic battle with Dr. Doom is one the Thing wins, but Ben Grimm loses.
Other examples Nightwing jumping in front of Batman, Barry Allen sacrificing himself to save the world, the Doom Patrol (first series) dying to save a small town of 16 people, Batman taking down Ras As Ghul in the desert, Superman stopping Doomsday and sacrifing his life and Adam Strange was a great hero - who showed us that we could out think any situation.
All great stories and overall teaching the lesson that doing the right thing is more important then anything else. Personal sacrifice must be made for the greater good. Right is right, wrong is wrong and no justification or victimization can make a wrong a right.
Yes they are a modern day myths and bringing these gods into the real world (as some writers try to do) destroys the mythological qualities of them.
I actually think of Batman as the Myth of Man. The idea that even a mere mortal can stand next to the modern day versions of the children of Gods. Superman fits into the son of God mythos - even down to his ultimate sacrifice and his ressurection.
My relationship with my comic book heroes has been changing recently. I must admit that working as a prosecutor is, in many ways, a direct result of my exposure to comic books as a child.
That exposure gave me a strong sense of justice, and a lingering obligation to protect those who couldn't protect themselves.
I've used the exploits of Batman, Superman, and Spiderman as rough models for my own behavior throughout the course of my life. I always turned to them and they had the answers for me.
These days, I have to admit that I contest with a lingering sense of frustration with the old comic book mores. The answers don't come as easily.
Let's say a guy a guy is up on some serious possession and distribution charges. Let's say he's a recidivist, so he's gonna catch it even worse, probably do a bit in the state pen. I've got good, reliable witnesses and strong evidence. No 4th amendment problems with the searches or anything like that. It's open and shut. I just need to be the hammer that drives the nail.
There is a basic comic book axiom of "punish the evil-doers". In this case, I think we can agree that pushing certain drugs can fit into this category. The guy is no gem. Ill-educated, violent, and suffering from serious entitlement issues, the jury would gladly throw him to the wolves and few people would care.
But let's say this same guy has a family. Putting him away, while comporting with the letter of the law, also means depriving his family of valuable income and a (albeit flawed) male role model. The kids and mother both are going to get stigmatized because their dad is a convict. While in the pen, he's probably going to get a nasty post-traumatic stress disorder thanks to the constant fear of violence and rape.
And given the already shitty home life, this is fuel on the fire of this family.
Suddenly, punishing the evil-doers isn't so simple. The powers that be won't accept "I'm worried about his family" as an appropriate reason to toss the charges.
So what do I do? I'm not Batman. I can't just buck the system and do it my own way. I've been educated, I accept this justice system as the best we've got (albeit still terribly flawed and desperately in need of reform). In an adversary system of justice, "throwing" the case is totally unethical because it makes me into the grand arbiter and final decision maker, which isn't my role.
It's a tough situation. I crack open even inspirational work like "Kingdom Come" and the answers don't leap off the page the way they used to. I've got to dig deeper... find them from somewhere else.
In a moment of rage, I hate my heroes and the simple reality they occupy.
But then I remember the point you made in the first place; they are creatures of MYTH. They are not representative of reality, but rather human potential. They must live in a simpler world, because when done correctly, superheroes are distilled ESSENCE of humanity. They are the higher ideals to which we aspire. They are empyrean forms of human nobility.
Things like Batman's resolve and Superman's purity are still useful to me, even though I can't utilize it in the same way they do. They sustain me through periods of confusion and difficulty.
When some drunk husband comes to the CASA shelter looking for his wife (eager for round two of domestic violence theater), it's the whispers of Spiderman that keep me from taking him apart on general principle.
Myths weren't always myths. In a world before we made any kind of scientific distinction, myths were how we explained WHY the universe is the way it is.
I don't think that has changed.
As you say, politics, dollar signs, and adolescent foolishness often gets in the way, but if you search deeply, there is something profound in comic books that inspires weak, fragile humans to do great things.
Good post, Gwen. Keep em' coming. I can guarantee you at least one faithful reader.
- PGS
I can see how being a prosecutor would be hard. How do you punish a man for stealing food to feed his family? Yet I feel that right is right with little gray inbetween. We must punish what we see is wrong. How crazy is it that you do more time for drug possession than you do a murder. I've heard that the average time served for murder is 7 years. I bet many of us could think of people we would kill if we knew we only had to do 7 years. We are treating criminals too gingerly these days. A hot 25 year old teacher sleeps with a 13 year old boy and she gets only probation. They say that there really is no victim in this crime. The male is a stud in the eyes of his friends so where's the damage? It's true that we live in a grayer world morally than superheroes do but we should strive to make it less so. Life really isn't as complicated as we think it is. We make it so cuz the human condition loves drama. I still believe that there is a right and a wrong with no wiggle room inbetween. It sickens me to see how many guys in their 20's will steal, cheat on their girlfriends, lie without remorse and just act with no morality at all in their everyday lives. Maybe it's cuz comics of the 90's were more about revenge fantasy than the myths of old.
In a sense, I do agree with you. My own morals, like those of my comic book inspirations, are fairly clear. I don't cheat on my girlfriend, steal, hurt people, or any of those things that a childhood of reading comics would tell you were wrong. That seems pretty black and white.
Though, I respectfully disagree with you about needing harsher penalties. The reality of our prison system is something that most people do not comprehend, or at least, choose not to consider.
Would Batman seem so noble for entrusting criminals to the system if the comic also showed the apprehended criminal giving blow jobs to a gang of white supremacists in the prison to keep from getting knifed?
That's reality. It's unpleasant. Comic books miss the mark by solar systems when they talk about the system "needing to be tougher". That's the talk politicians use to get re-elected and people accept without thinking it through.
In the eighties, we decided to chuck the concept of "rehabilitation" out the window, and look where it got us. Suddenly, we "needed" ultra-violent characters like Spawn and the Punisher for the world to make sense.
I've been studying martial arts with near religious fervor for half a decade now, and my studies have lead me to believe that the effectiveness of raw, physical force is extremely limited. To change people's behaviors, we have to touch their minds and their hearts... that's infinitely harder.
The reality is that most criminals are going to get out of prison (instead of being executed), so I think we need to come up with new, better ways to persuade them to stop breaking the law, instead of making them more dangerous and violent.
Fear doesn't work as a motivator, nor do stiff penalties. Almost all the states in the lead for murder rates also have the death penalty. Perhaps the irrational nature of the criminal is so self-destructive that even death doesn't deter.
I agree with you: right and wrong are very clear to me and they synch up with superhero mores pretty well. In regards to how I carry myself on a day to day basis, "What would Superman do?" normally yields the appropriate answer.
However, we have chosen a system where the 99 guilty go free before the 1 innocent is condemned. The results sometimes seem like a miscarriage of justice, but that's the cost of doing business.
You can believe that the falsely accused person, facing the hellish confines of prison for something he didn't do, thanks the stars at night that we are perhaps absurdly careful in convicting people.
Right and wrong are kind of simple. But what to DO about that becomes a lot more difficult, and that's where my problems with comic book morality pop up. There, I find myself having to look to other places for guidance.
Thanks for the comment; it got me thinking.
See, I agree with you about rehabilitation to an extent. To me, there are some things that if you do them, you have forfeitted your right to live among the rest of the humans. Except in cases with mitigating circumstances, I believe that if you take a life you should serve no less than 25 years before parole is even an option. I don't believe in the death penalty. If you hurt a child, very harsh measures should be taken to make certain you can never do that again. It's more than just the initial criminal act. Let's take a rape for instance. My mother was raped when she was 9. That has had a profound effect on her her entire life. The rapist not only violated her, he stole from her her potential, happier life. What price should you pay for something like that? You can say you're sorry and get rehabilitated and work trying to do good for the rest of your life, but it will never undo the horrible thing you did. We are too ready to look for excuses to leviate sentences. We need to apply the law evenly and equally as well. Tommy Lee was throwing a party for his young son and a 4 year old boy attending the shindig drowned cuz Lee didn't have adequate supervision. I think he should have done time. Instead he just paid the parents off. Rebecca Gayheart hit and killed a 9 year old boy with her car. Did she go to jail? No. I'm sure she's torn up by the whole thing, but it's not enough. Along with rehabilitation there must be punishment. They should work together. That's why I was sickened when the Justice League decided they would use Zatanna to magically lobotomize criminals to get them to act better. This flies in the face of everything Superman, Spider-man and Batman ever taught me. Let's get back to making superheroes inspriations, to show us what we someday could be. Off to make cupcakes for my Mama. Happy Mother's Day everybody!!
PS-if superheroes have taught me anything it's to take responsibility for your actions. If you break something, admit it and make amends. If you fart, don't blame it on the dog. Also, if you're better of financially you should try and help those less fortunate. If you are a physically strong person you should try and protect the weak and help them open their sticky jar lids. Try and make the world a better place. It is so much easier to destroy than it is to create.
Good thread on the law and order issues.
I have a long answer, but I'll try and be short.
First up is what is wrong is wrong, but the circumstances surrounding any case must be taken into account. Simple example I kill someone. Now if that person I killed was walking down the street and I shot him and took his money that's one thing. If that person was in my house and he had beaten me up and was now attacking my wife and about to kill her - that's another thing.
Next what is the purpose of punishment -warehousing, retribution or rehabilitation. Different crimes should have different end goals in their punishment.
Last (while there is tons more, I'm trying to be brief) we should work to change the laws to reduce what is a crime and is not a crime. I contend a drug user is not a criminal, a drug dealer is a criminal. Punishing a kid who uses heroin, have we done anything to solve the problem?
lol. Heh... I just get frustrated when a bunch of folks in the justice system solve tweezer problems with a hammer.
I totally agree about the celebrity thing. I wish more celebs got the book thrown at em'.
But back to the comics end of things...
I've tackled the area Gwen is touching on here before (albeit in a ham-fisted and roundabout way).
My take was that DC generally has a better grip on the mythology angle than Marvel, which seems more geared towards current events commentary. I'm a "DC convert" who grew up reading Marvel and I really dived into DC about three years ago.
With this limited exposure, it just seems like the DC pantheon is a little more "elemental" than Marvel's gang, and I find that appealing.
I'm glad to see the discussion this has generated. I'm not going to go into the law debate here because thanks to Pat I realize how little I actually know about our legal system. I will say that Batman comic books more than anything else makes me question the type of punishments used today. The revolving door of Arkham makes me wonder how much rehabilitation works... how many repeat offenders are out there. However, Batman has taught me the importance of working with the law (even as a vigilante Bats works with the law, as do many other heroes).
Pat, I'm glad you've gotten into the DC world, I always thought you were a DC person at heart and it's nice that you've converted ;)
Keep the discussion going guys, I'll be posting reviews and such for the next few days.
See, I always thought that as a very small kid you start with the DCU. Superman is usually a lot of kids' favorite before they can even read. As a kid, you're blown away by the grandeur of the heroes and their origins. The last son of Krypton. An alien crash landing and giving you a power ring and a catchy oath to recite. Getting struck by lightning, dosed in chemicals, then being able to run on water. The heroes were mythic and grandiose and just a joy to look at. Then you get into your teenage years and you start thinking the DC guys are lame and you want to see heroes who arent' so perfect and buddy buddy all the time. Enter the Marvel U. It's heroes are flawed and have real life problems. Alcoholism, heart disease, money problems, female troubles. These traits make them more relatable especially when you're a teen trying to figure out where you fit in. But then you mature, hit your 20's and realize that most Marvel books are just action-oriented slugfests, more concerned with art than story. You begin to look for more meat on your comics and you come back to DC or convert for the first time and fall in love with the characters who really are iconic and more mythic than anything Marvel has done. It scares me that Didio wants to make DC more like Marvel(ie: giving it's icons feet of clay)so that DC can one day beat Marvel in sales. Glad they fixed the Big 3 with Crisis but did 52 read like a Marvel book or what?
As for the legal stuff, I still think we need to come down harder on certain criminals. I went to high school with Andrew Fastow of Enron infamy. The guy was a dick in high school; spoiled rich, wanting for nothing, and he turned out to be a bigger dick when he got older. There was no need for him to do what he did. He had all the money anyone could want and was living the high life. But greed got the better of him and he ruined so many people's lives without giving it a thought. Selfish, cocky, egotistic. He deserves worse than he got. There are many things you can do to someone that are worse than killing them. What Fastow did to all those people, Lord only knows how they're gonna provide for their old age now, he should rot in jail for a long, long time.
Agreed... one of the key problems with the justice system is that generally money can and does save your ass, in the form of lesser sentences and savvy, bulldog type mercenary lawyers.
But I think you're right about the DCU. It's better for a kid to start out with, but the first comic I ever got was the Amazing Spiderman, so... *shrug* Web-head worshipper I am.
I think your reply kind of hits at the heart of frustration that can stem form DCU characters - they are SO good and SO elemental that sometimes in trying to live up to their example, you just want to bang your head against the wall.
... but that's a good thing. I hope they don't succeed in Marvel-izing the DCU. They're different, the support a different fan-base, and there's a reason for that.
- PGS
So speaking about trying to live up to other people's deeds, there is a guy with a book out about how poorly the media is covering the Iraq War. Now I don't want to get into whether or not we should have gotten into the war, just this part of it. The guy says that reporters don't report on the heroic deeds of some soldiers cuz it makes them feel bad about themselves when they realize they wouldn't do the same thing in the given situation. If that soldier did something so great and I wouldn't, what does that say about me? Kinda like how JJJ feels about Spider-man. And I see this in certain comic writers too. They see these heroes who are morally better than they are, and since they can't live up to that ideal, they tear down the hero by making him do something horrible. Again, this is kinda like JJJ writing all those nasty Spidey stories so people won't think of him as a hero. That's kinda petty, isn't it? Why make Superman less than what he is instead of celebrating all that he stands for?
Many people are petty and it makes me sad that those people want to ruin one of the few things that makes me feel better about humanity. It's a vicious vicious cycle =/
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